General Discussion -  IRAQ - VERY INTERESTING - DID YOU KNOW? (137 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)     10/20/2004 10:56 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 42)  
 
  913.1  
 
E -Message

IRAQ - VERY INTERESTING - DID YOU KNOW?

1. The garden of Eden was in Iraq.

2. Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, was the cradle of civilization!

3. Noah built the ark in Iraq.

4. The Tower of Babel was in Iraq.

5. Abraham was from Ur, which is in Southern Iraq!

6. Isaac's wife Rebekah is from Nahor, which is in Iraq.

7. Jacob met Rachel in Iraq.

8. Jonah preached in Nineveh - which is in Iraq.

9. Assyria, which is in Iraq, conquered the ten tribes of Israel.

10. Amos cried out in Iraq!

11. Babylon, which is in Iraq, destroyed Jerusalem.

12. Daniel was in the lion's den in Iraq!

13. The three Hebrew children were in the fire in Iraq (Jesus had been
in Iraq also as the fourth person in the fiery furnace!)

14. Belshazzar, the King of Babylon saw the "writing on the wall" in
Iraq.

15. Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, carried the Jews captive into
Iraq.

16. Ezekiel preached in Iraq.

17. The wise men were from Iraq.

18. Peter preached in Iraq.

19. The "Empire of Man" described in Revelation is called Babylon,which
was 
a city in Iraq!

And you have probably seen this one. Israel is the nation most often 
mentioned in the Bible. But do you know which nation is second? It is
Iraq! 

However, that is not the name that is used in the Bible. The names used
in the Bible are Babylon, Land of Shinar, and Mesopotamia. The word 
Mesopotamia means between the two rivers, more exactly between the
Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. The name Iraq, means country with deep roots.

Indeed Iraq is a country with deep roots and is a very significant
country in the Bible.

No other nation, except Israel, has more history and prophecy
associated it than Iraq.

And also... This is something to think about! Since America is
typically represented by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim 
passages...

The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible)

Koran (9:11) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a 
fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the
lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still
more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and
there was peace.

(Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?! God Bless you all Amen !

I BETTER NOT HEAR OF ANYONE BREAKING THIS ONE OR SEE DELETED This is a 
ribbon for soldiers fighting in Iraq. Pass it on to everyone and pray. 
Something good will happen to you tonight at 11:11 PM. This is not a
joke. 

Someone will either call you or will talk to you online and say that
they love you. Do not break this chain. Send this to 13 people in the next
15 minutes. Go. 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (hioo)   10/20/2004 11:03 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 42)  
 
  913.2 in reply to 913.1  
 
Amazing! And I am under conviction that indeed the end of time as we know it is just about to close down. Maybe a few years yet, maybe a few months yet, for no one knows the time or day, but we DO know quite a bit concerning the seasons. It is the right set of seasons, from what I can gather. 
And Iraq, Syria, Libya(sp) are all tied into this scene. AS WELL AS THE LORD'S DECLARED COUNTRY......ISRAEL.


Born once; Die twice
Born twice; Die once 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/3/2004 6:39 pm  
To:  ALL   (3 of 42)  
 
  913.3 in reply to 913.2  
 
Guys, guys......please calm yourselves. The part about the verse in the Koran is a hoax. Urband legend. False rumor. 
Please check out: 

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_quran_911.htm 

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/k/koran-war.htm 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/quran.asp 

http://www.wam.umd.edu/~stwright/rel/islam/Quran/9.html 

You're not really that gullible, are you? 

The only thing that's going to bring on the end times and start Armeggedon is Bush's folly which, unfortunately we're going to have for another 4 years! 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (hioo)   11/4/2004 5:23 am  
To:  afreshface   (4 of 42)  
 
  913.4 in reply to 913.3  
 
You people just don't know when to shutup do you? That is why you are in the fix you are in. It is always someone else's fault, NEVER any fault of your own. 
You haven't got it right for forty years and you STILL don't have it right. Keep it up for it just makes our job easier of maintaining control. And it isn't like you haven't been told about your fallacies. You just don't choose to believe that you could POSSIBLE BE WRONG. 

It is ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT. 

We want you to continue to believe that.....PLEASE!


Born once; Die twice
Born twice; Die once 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/4/2004 3:50 pm  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (5 of 42)  
 
  913.5 in reply to 913.4  
 
Bob, 
What ARE you talking about? WE people? How do you know what kind of person I am? I simply corrected some erroneous info about the Koran and stated that I thought Bush foolish. 

I definitely don't blame others for all my ills. Please see my post: 

<a href=http://forums.delphiforums.com/FreeThinkers3/messages/?msg=3424.1>post number 3424.5</a> 

(don't know if the link worked, I'm basic) 

at another forum; one I'm sure you won't LIKE much, but at least read the post. 

What FALLICIES are you speaking of? Please ellucidate more clearly, I must be DENSE!
 
  
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  From:  Bob (hioo)   11/4/2004 5:20 pm  
To:  afreshface   (6 of 42)  
 
  913.6 in reply to 913.5  
 
If you want to be a Bush basher, do it somewhere else. Bush bashers are NOT in vogue. You want to be cute, take your cuteness to Terry McCawfull. He could sure use some cheering up about now. And of course you may get yet another smile from Hillary. 
You identified yourself as one of "those people" by your favorite activity....Bush bashing. 

He is from Texas, He talks kind of funny, not one of those so-called elete, efete Noreasters like John Skerry and of course the most honorable Ted Kennedy of "swimmer fame". 

But then it looks like the MAJORITY of the American people don't care about those "shortcomings".....they just voted into office a President who says what he means....and means what he says. The inner beltway crowd are STILL in shock over that. Most people can't remember a WDC'er that has done that before. They are so used to people who lie as stock in trade, that anything else contributes to psychomatic stress. 

And to top off the cake, President Bush has said he is a "born again Christian". That just has to send the anti religious WDC crowd right straight into orbit. And they have to put up with four more years of this. Just wait till Hiliary gets her chance. She'll show 'em just how to treat the American people. Yeah, right if she still has her health at that time. But then again maybe she will have to go to Haiti to get a "refresher" course on how to be a really good witch. 



Born once; Die twice
Born twice; Die once 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/4/2004 7:13 pm  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (7 of 42)  
 
  913.7 in reply to 913.6  
 
Good gracious, you're a sourpuss ! 
Your quote: "they just voted into office a President who says what he means....and means what he says." 

For the record, Bush LIES LIKE A RUG! He has been CALLED on many of his lies and he just keeps telling them, like if he repeats them enough times folks will just give up and believe it. 

Kerry's no catch either, but I felt he was the lesser of two evils. 

Your quote: "And to top off the cake, President Bush has said he is a "born again Christian"" 

Many people have practically diefied Bush, but people bathed in the blood of the Lamb, don't cut funding programs for education and assistance programs for those less fortunate then themselves. People who follow Christ (REALLY follow him) don't go warmongering in sovereign nations because it suits their political AND personal agenda. 

As for being from Texas and taking funny I could care less. I'm no elitist. Don't kid yourself, however, that Bush doesn't think of HIMSELF as one of the elite. Funny accent or not, he comes from money and privilege and has little understanding or compassion for the working poor of this nation. I should know, I've been one for most of my life. 

So you think Hillary is going to run for president some day? Interesting. I didn't vote for her in the Senate race (I am a NYer)and I doubt very much I would vote for her for president. She just annoys me. 

Finally, the main point of my post was to point out the ERROR in your posting about the Koran, not to bash Bush. It is very ignorant and divisive to post untruths about other religious writings to support your own position. I am also surprised that you bought that hoax hook line and sinker. All it takes to educate yourself on matters is a quick Google search. Common sense would tell most people that a quote of that nature coincidentally showing up in the Koran under the verse number 9:11 is a fraud. Perhaps you attacked me on my Bush stance to divert attention from the fact that you are that embarrassingly gullible?
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/5/2004 12:13 am  
To:  afreshface   (8 of 42)  
 
  913.8 in reply to 913.7  
 
 Bush LIES LIKE A RUG! 

-------

well, that's  just not true.    that you want to believe it is another thing altogether.    

Bob's good people.   

Be nice.

_____________________________

Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian
 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/5/2004 5:29 am  
To:  amym38    (9 of 42)  
 
  913.9 in reply to 913.8  
 
Bob may be a very good person, and I will most certainly give him the benefit of the doubt. However, his response to my first post wasn't very nice. 
Bush lied about Saddam having significant ties to Al Quaida. He also lied about weapons of mass destruction and began an offensive early in order to avoid the weapons inspectors proving there were none. Bush & Co. have their own agenda and it doesn't have as much to do with the "fight against terrorism" as you might think. What ever happened to Osama Bin Laden, the REAL monster behind the Twin Towers disaster? Bush doesn't talk about him anymore, does he? He SWORE he would not give up until he was captured........hmmmmm. 

Saddam Hussein was a brutal monster of a dictator and I agree that he needed to be deposed. I just think we did it the wrong way. Think of all the death, pain & suffering Bush's decisions have caused for thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens. The very people that Bush supposedly pledged to "liberate". Think of the pain & suffering of the families of the over 1000 U.S. casualties in this war. I know Hussein killed MANY more than that. But HE was in the wrong. He was a brutal man doing heinous things to innocent people. Now WE are perceived that way, by much of the world. Are they wrong? Is it wrong for Saddam Hussein to kill and torture and okay for US??????????? I wonder if God thinks so. 

Just some thoughts and explanations for why I don't particularly care for Bush.
 
  
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  From:  Bob (hioo)   11/5/2004 7:37 am  
To:  afreshface   (10 of 42)  
 
  913.10 in reply to 913.9  
 
At any rate you ALMOST got the last word. You are so wrong that further explanation would be an exercise in futility. "You people" are like that though. You are so serene in the idea that you are SO right that any other suggestion or thought is immediately repugnant to you or your senses. 
So be it. NOW you serene types are in a minority of the political scene..and a good thing you are I might add. 

If you can't lead, GET OUT OF THE WAY and allow those who can....LEAD. 

AND the Koran is a lie straight from the pit of hell. While it has some "worthwhile truth" in it, it also has some "terrible lies" and even "horrible instruction" in it. Any book that has a combination of these things is NOT of God, I don't care HOW you slice it. 

Lastly but not leastly Saddam DID have not only ties, but extensive ties to every type of Muslim terrorist in the Mid-East. But that isn't what "you people" complained about where President Bush is concerned originally. You complained that WMD's were NOT found in the country and that is why the American military went into Iraq. Of course that is the wrong reason, but ANYTHING to accuse the Republican administration of the "wrong reasons" and make the President look as stupid as you think he is. 

But how does a "stupid" President out maneuver "you people" at every turn? There is "stupidity" somewhere but the source is in question.


Born once; Die twice
Born twice; Die once 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/5/2004 11:18 am  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (11 of 42)  
 
  913.11 in reply to 913.10  
 
amym38 said you were "good people" Bob. I find that to be an inaccurate statement. 
I am trying to have a civil dialog with you and you are nothing but belligerent, arrogant and vituperative. 

I don't believe I ever said I was "so" right either. I am open to discussion, disagreement and correction on my viewpoint. If said correction is accompanied by verifiable factual information. 

If you would be willing to point me to the verifiable sources of your argument that "Saddam DID have not only ties, but extensive ties to every type of Muslim terrorist in the Mid-East", I would be willing to reconsider my opinion. However, I remind you that Bush said that Saddam had ties SPECIFICALLY to Al Quaida and THAT was why we were justified in attacking Iraq. If he had ties to EVERY TYPE of Muslim terrorist in the Mid-East EXCEPT Al Quaida, then we did not have a strong case for invading a sovereign nation. Al Quaida did us wrong. We would be within our rights to retaliate against them. It is not within our rights to attack Iraq because they have "ties" to terrorists that are similar to Al Quaida. Where is the PROOF that Iraq has ties to Al Quaida specifically? 

The Koran may be a lie straight from the pit of hell, but if that's so, why would you ever think that verse 9:11 was true? 

The OT has much "horrible instruction" in it too: stoning people, cutting off hands, killing every man woman & child in certain cities/countries. Do you deny that? What is the difference between Yahweh(the God of Abraham) instructing Moses and his "chosen" people to kill heathens in his name and Allah (the God of Abraham) to kill infidels in his?????? 

If not finding WMD's in Iraq was the wrong reason to be upset over the U.S. going into Iraq what is the right reason? 

And lastly, exactly how is Bush "outmaneuvering" *us* people? You mean because he was able to win in all the states with Diebold electronic voting machines?????
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/5/2004 10:19 pm  
To:  afreshface   (12 of 42)  
 
  913.12 in reply to 913.9  
 
um, you came in here with your guns a'blazin.   very rude, in my book.    Bob is a regular, as am I.  David is the owner.   We should be able to discuss things without newbies coming in here being nasty, don't ya think?   

Have you been on Delphi long? or any forums, for that matter?   if so, you must know there is a certain etiquette to follow.  if not, you might want to learn what that is.

as to the rest of your post:

Bush didn't 'lie' and who says he has 'given up?'

You're parroting leftist talking points, nothing more.

Hey....I have a thought for you.  Think of the MILLIONS of people terrorists have killed just in the last 10-15 years.   Including those on 9/11 and those Saddam himself has killed and mutilated.

byeeeee

_____________________________

Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/5/2004 10:21 pm  
To:  afreshface   (13 of 42)  
 
  913.13 in reply to 913.11  
 
I am trying to have a civil dialog with you

-----------

No.  You came in here with your talking points and no regard whatsoever of the type of forum you entered and with whom you were engaging in discussion.

how old are you?

_____________________________

Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian
 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/6/2004 7:25 am  
To:  amym38    (14 of 42)  
 
  913.14 in reply to 913.13  
 
amym38, 
I understand your being upset with me and I apologize for coming on too strong for David's forum. I have been a Delphi member for going on 2 years and before that several years at other forums & clubs where discussions occur. I'm 43 and have learned a lot of interesting things in my life. I do not spout "talking points", I share my opinions and ideas, which are my own. I'm not a "leftist" per say, I'm actually quite conservative in many things, but I don't like the direction Bush is taking our country in. 

When I see blatant falsehoods, like the "Koran quote" in the first post, I feel a duty to correct. It bothers and worries me that some people are so zealous in their beliefs that they can't recognize falsehood when they see it. That is the kind of over-zealousness that the Muslim extremeists have and which causes so many problems. 

For the record, I am not Muslim. I have not read the Koran, although if I could find the time I think it would be a good thing to do. Education is always better than ignorance. There is a saying, "To defeat the enemy, you must first KNOW the enemy." 

I was just so incredibly surprized that a mature poster actually believed the "9:11" quote that I may have posted a little too strongly. I will try to watch that in future. 

However, I would be interested to know if Bob, or you for that matter, went to any of the links and checked on the debunking of the Koran 9:11 urban myth? You don't still beleive that quote is correct, do you? I am willing to go to the library and look the verse up in the Koran itself if you would like. Although, I suppose you might not believe ME when I reported back. 

As far as Bush lying or not lying, can you please tell me how, specifically you feel he is NOT lying about his motivations for starting a war with Iraq? And what specific information you have about Iraq's ties to Al Quaeda? I would be seriously interested in knowing about that if it is true. But in order to be convinced I need to read it from a non-biased source. 

Yes, the millions of people killed and maimed by Hussein and Bin Laden are a tradegy and need to be addressed. BUT, what our country is doing is dangerously similar to "their" tactics and that's what disturbs me. 

I noticed no one replied to my questions: "Is it wrong for Saddam Hussein to kill and torture and okay for US??????????? I wonder if God thinks so." and "The OT has much "horrible instruction" in it too: stoning people, cutting off hands, killing every man woman & child in certain cities/countries. Do you deny that? What is the difference between Yahweh(the God of Abraham) instructing Moses and his "chosen" people to kill heathens in his name and Allah (the God of Abraham) to kill infidels in his??????" 

Why do you always ignore the "pointed questions" (as opposed to "talking points"!) and make personal attacks upon me?
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/6/2004 11:26 am  
To:  afreshface   (15 of 42)  
 
  913.15 in reply to 913.14  
 
Well, thank you for your apology, however, what is this?:


"Why do you always ignore the "pointed questions" (as opposed to "talking points"!) and make personal attacks upon me?"

Show me where I've 'always' done anything and where I've made 'personal attacks upon' you?

_____________________________

Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian
 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/6/2004 1:40 pm  
To:  amym38    (16 of 42)  
 
  913.16 in reply to 913.15  
 
amym38, 
I may have lumped you in with Bob as far as personal attacks, for which I also apologize. But I don't believe you have answered any of my questions to you, such as: 

In post number 913.9 I said to you, "I know Hussein killed MANY more than that. But HE was in the wrong. He was a brutal man doing heinous things to innocent people. Now WE are perceived that way, by much of the world. Are they wrong? Is it wrong for Saddam Hussein to kill and torture and okay for US??????????? I wonder if God thinks so." 

You have not responded to that question and I would like to know what your opnion is on it. For myself, I don't feel killing and torturing (Abu Graib is one example of us torturing others) is right or Christlike, no matter who the people are that are perceived as our enemies. Christ preached in Luke 6:27-36 to "turn the other cheek", "love your enemies" and "if a man asks for your coat, give him your shirt also". I do not see this Christlike behavior emulated by Bush and other Christians who support the war in Iraq and it troubles me. Go read the verses in Luke and tell me how that compares with what we are doing in Iraq. 

In my post 913.14 to you I said: "However, I would be interested to know if Bob, or you for that matter, went to any of the links and checked on the debunking of the Koran 9:11 urban myth? You don't still beleive that quote is correct, do you?" 

You have not answered that question either. Have you checked on the Koran quote? 

I also posted in the same message, "As far as Bush lying or not lying, can you please tell me how, specifically you feel he is NOT lying about his motivations for starting a war with Iraq? And what specific information you have about Iraq's ties to Al Quaeda?" 

You have not addressed this either. 

I also reiterated something in that message that I had asked Bob, ""The OT has much "horrible instruction" in it too: stoning people, cutting off hands, killing every man woman & child in certain cities/countries. Do you deny that? What is the difference between Yahweh(the God of Abraham) instructing Moses and his "chosen" people to kill heathens in his name and Allah (the God of Abraham) to kill infidels in his??????"" 

So far, you have not answered any of the above questions, which I have posted to you. Since we have just begun talking and you have not answered any of the questions I put to you, I believe I am correct in stating that thus far, you have "always" ignored my pointed questions. 

In looking back over the posts I see that it is mostly Bob who has been making "personal attacks" on me. Not that it bothers me really, it's all part of debate and discussion where parties disagree. But I feel BOB'S responses to me show much more rudeness than mine to him. 

Please read Bob's responses to me again. In the very first one (913.4), he referred to me as "you people" - lumping me in with some imagined group of leftist un-godly freaks it seems. He refers to "us people" not getting it right for 40 years and says that we always blame other people. I had no idea what he was refering to. I have been completely uninterested in politics until just a few years ago. I was busy spending the last 40 years growing up, starting a family, trying to survive financially and raise that family. And I don't know what fallicies I'm supposed to have been told about either! 

In 913.10 he jumped all over me again, "You are so wrong that further explanation would be an exercise in futility. "You people" are like that though. You are so serene in the idea that you are SO right that any other suggestion or thought is immediately repugnant to you or your senses. 

So be it. NOW you serene types are in a minority of the political scene..and a good thing you are I might add. 

If you can't lead, GET OUT OF THE WAY and allow those who can....LEAD. " 

To me the above quote is a very good example of rude. It also appears to me that BOB is a person who believes that HE is "so right". He is unable to brook any disagreement with his views. I, OTOH, am always open to learn new things and change my views and opinions based upon new knowledge. It's called being open minded. 

Bob also said to me: "But how does a "stupid" President out maneuver "you people" at every turn? There is "stupidity" somewhere but the source is in question." 

Basically he called me stupid. That was pretty rude. I'm not stupid. I called Bob gullible, because he seemed to be so due to his believing the 9:11 Koran "Eagle" quote. 

However, I'm not having a cow at being called stupid. I am continuing to try and have a discussion on this topic because that's what I thought forums were for. Bob's having a cow over being rightly called gullible. I have no rancor towards Bob. On the contrary I feel sad that he is so negative and feels so much fear and hatred for many of "us people". I would think that would make his life very unhappy and stressful.
 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/14/2004 3:06 pm  
To:  amym38    (17 of 42)  
 
  913.17 in reply to 913.15  
 
amym38, 
Did you guys "bozo" me?? That's not very nice. If you don't want visitors you should have a private forum. 

According to my screen there have been NO posts since 11/6 even though there are plenty of people visiting each day. 

I guess it might be easier to ignore me than answer my "pointed questions".......
 
  
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  From:  amym38     11/14/2004 3:19 pm  
To:  afreshface   (18 of 42)  
 
  913.18 in reply to 913.17  
 
Just because there were visitors doesn't mean anyone posted.   I don't believe you've been 'bozo'ed.'  I'll check.   

I checked.  You were not nor are you bozo'ed.

Feel free to post something.   [try to be respectful and courteous, though. :) ]

 

_____________________________

Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 11/14/2004 6:20 pm ET by amym38 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/14/2004 5:13 pm  
To:  amym38    (19 of 42)  
 
  913.19 in reply to 913.18  
 
Thank you very much for checking on that. I appreciate it. 
I am disappointed that Bob doesn't seem to want to finish out our discussion. Realising now, how sensitive some here are, I am more than willing to tone it down a bit and play nice :o) 

 
  
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   From:  amym38     11/14/2004 7:23 pm  
To:  afreshface   (20 of 42)  
 
  913.20 in reply to 913.19  
 
Very good. Thank you.   Yes, some of us are sensitive about our faith and what we know to be true.   This is a respectful, quiet place usually.  There are other forums where one can get a bit more opinionated and loud.    Not that we don't have our opinions here, but it's just different.

Amy

_____________________________

Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian
 
  
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From:  Free.man (FREEMANCJ)   11/15/2004 8:11 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (21 of 42)  
 
  913.21 in reply to 913.1  
 
Dear friend, 
You aver: [And also... This is something to think about! Since America is 
typically represented by an eagle. Saddam should have read up on his Muslim 
passages... 

The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible) 

Koran (9:11) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a 
fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the 
lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still 
more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and 
there was peace. 

(Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?! God Bless you all Amen !] 

_______________________________________________________ _ 

Qur'an; Surah 9:11 

AL-TAWBA (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION) 

009.011 
YUSUFALI: But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand. 
PICKTHAL: But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. 
SHAKIR: But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know. 

I've taken the liberty to post 3 different translations of the Qur'anic verse 9:11. As you can see: There is _no_ mention at all about an "eagle". I find it particularly interesting that the quote ends with such as, "for those who understand", "for a people who have knowledge" and, and "communications clear for a people who know". 

I could be wrong, but it seems, at least to me, that you presented yourself as one of those who knows and understands about this subject. However, the evidence shows otherwise. This suggests, to me, that: 

(A) You knowingly presented a lie as the truth. If so, can a lie ever become a truth? If one is so willing and able to present a lie as truth by inserting the lie into the Scriptures of another religion; then what other behaviors is one willing and able to do to accomplish making a lie the truth? Moreover, is it also necessary that one be willing and able to then use the inserted lie in those Scriptures as a proof that these same Scriptures are nothing but lies? 

(B) You unknowingly presented a lie as the truth. If so, can a lie ever become a truth? If one is so zealously willing and able to present or pass on a lie as a truth without first checking the facts; then, does this mean the lie becomes the truth? Can one then use this lie that is inserted as fact into the Scriptures of another religion as a proof that the other religion is a lie? Are you being used by others to carry on a lie as a truth? If so, how does it feel to be used by others to perpetuate a lie as truth? Where are one's responsibilities? 

You write: [I BETTER NOT HEAR OF ANYONE BREAKING THIS ONE OR SEE DELETED This is a 
ribbon for soldiers fighting in Iraq. Pass it on to everyone and pray. 
Something good will happen to you tonight at 11:11 PM. This is not a 
joke. 

Someone will either call you or will talk to you online and say that 
they love you. Do not break this chain. Send this to 13 people in the next 
15 minutes. Go.] 

It seems that you now whant others to carry forward a lie as though it were the truth? Is this so? What say you? 

Pax! 

Free.man 

 
  
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  From:  Free.man (FREEMANCJ)   11/15/2004 8:18 am  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (22 of 42)  
 
  913.22 in reply to 913.10  
 
Dear friend, 
You write: [AND the Koran is a lie straight from the pit of hell. While it has some "worthwhile truth" in it, it also has some "terrible lies" and even "horrible instruction" in it. Any book that has a combination of these things is NOT of God, I don't care HOW you slice it.] 

By the above statement, it seems, you know a lot about the Qur'an? Show me? If you are unwilling and unable to do this then I'll understand. 

Pax! 

Free.man 


 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/15/2004 10:30 am  
To:  Free.man (FREEMANCJ)   (23 of 42)  
 
  913.23 in reply to 913.21  
 
Hi Free.man, 
I believe DavidBrown just copied and pasted an email message he had received into the forum for discussion purposes. I don't believe David, himself, was promoting passing along the "lie". I'm pretty sure that the facts in the first part of the message are accurate for the most part. (As far as my biblical knowledge goes...) Iraq *is* at the center of a LOT of biblical history. 

For myself, I only had issue with the second part of the post where the Koran verse was. It was so obvious to me immediately upon reading it that it was a made up verse used to suit the purpose of it's author that I was quite flabbergasted when I saw Bob reply in a positive manner! I immediately googled the verse to obtain the actual translation and posted to let Bob know he was a little bit gullible in believing it so easily. 

Unfortunately, I phrased my response a little poorly and offended Bob and some others here. I was very much enjoying having conversation with them on the lack of merit of the US invasion of Iraq. But it seems that no one wants to finish the discussion as I have not had a response to my Nov 6 post yet.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)     11/15/2004 12:08 pm  
To:  Free.man (FREEMANCJ)   (24 of 42)  
 
  913.24 in reply to 913.21  
 
Hi,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Thanks for our input.

 

It looks like that part of the post was inaccurate.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

God (Jesus) Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (hioo)   11/15/2004 12:27 pm  
To:  Free.man (FREEMANCJ)   (25 of 42)  
 
  913.25 in reply to 913.22  
 
I don't NEED to show you. Read it for yourself. I haven't read the whole Koran, but I have read enough to know that it is NOT of God. Also enough of the different passages have been presented on these boards over the years to give any person who is alert to it a rather wide range of study of the Koran. I don't have a copy of it for my personal use. I have to seek other sources for that. I have a few local sources. 
But why read a book that you know is a verbage land mine when you can read the bible and know that it is the truth. Why deliberately set yourself up other than to become familiar enough with it to KNOW the book(Koran) for what it is and not what others say it is. 

The only thing I can say is go study the book for yourself then give an opinion on it. If you have already read the book and still feel it is the book for you...so be it. But I am here to tell you it is a pack of lies since it isn't hard to find one lie in it. Ie, Jesus is a great prophet but not God. Also the Christian God is an impossibility for there is no such thing as a Triune God, therefor, the Christian God is a lie. Those two things are in there. And there is a whole lot more that will make you perk up.


Born once; Die twice
Born twice; Die once 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/16/2004 6:07 am  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (26 of 42)  
 
  913.26 in reply to 913.25  
 
Hi Bob, 
Don't know if you are still speaking to me, but I wanted to share some feelings on this part of your post: 

"But I am here to tell you it is a pack of lies since it isn't hard to find one lie in it. Ie, Jesus is a great prophet but not God. Also the Christian God is an impossibility for there is no such thing as a Triune God, therefor, the Christian God is a lie. Those two things are in there. And there is a whole lot more that will make you perk up." 

My personal feeling on this take on the Bible vs. the Koran as far as truthfulness and divine inspiration is that basically it's a case of "he said, she said" more or less. 

The Bible claims to be the inerrant and divinely inspired word of God as given to certain of His prophets (Moses, etc) in the centuries before Christ's birth and written down for posterity. 

The Koran claims to be the inerrant and divinely inspired word of God (Allah-which is just the Arabic word for the God of Abraham, same God Christians worship) as given to His prophet Mohammed in 7th century A.D. and written down for posterity. 

Both claim to be of God and divinely inspired and inerrant. How can one possibly know with certainty which one is correct, or if either are correct? 

The fact that one came first can not really be claimed an indicator. After all Sanskit and Hindi texts on the nature of God and the universe written by "prophets" in the East were written down for posterity many centuries before either the Bible or the Koran came into existance. Yet Christianity rejects them as having any veracity also. 

I am just curious as to what makes a Christian fully believe in the innerrancy and validity of the Bible. The only answer I ever seem to get is "because the Bible says it is so" and that to me is a hollow argument. 

If I were to write a treatise on what I felt to be divinely inspired knowledge about God and the universe and in that document state that this document is the only truth and definitely inspired from God, would you believe MY document? 

If my document was found by archaeologists 1000 years from now, would they believe it? 

What if a small band of people believed me now, and became "followers" of my "teachings" and copied my treatise over down through the centuries and a group of descendants of my followers were still living by those words I'd written 1000 years from now when archaeologists found the original documents. Would that lend credibility to the followers claims that MY words were the truth and divinely inspired? 

Or would some of the archaeologists just say "Oh, COME ON, that was just some "joe blow" with delusions of grandeur 500 years ago, how can you prove what was written is really truth?" (Please don't think I am calling Jesus a "joe blow" - I am referring to various authors of the Bible some of whom may have been inspired and some of whom probably weren't.) 

So you see my quandry with regards to the inerrant nature of ANY document stated within itself to be the only truth. 

My personal belief is that one can only come to know God within oneself; in ones prayer and meditation and contemplation. I think that God manifest's himself to each individual in an individual and equally valid way. After all, he *is* omnipotent. As every individual is a seperate and unique being, so to, I believe will every individual's experience of God be unique. 

I think theological documents can sometimes help, but you need to read all kinds as there seems to be truth in many. If one prays for wisdom and discernment before delving into any spiritual readings I believe the truth will stand out from falsehood and wisdom will grow.
 
  
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  From:  Bob (hioo)   11/16/2004 6:14 am  
To:  afreshface   (27 of 42)  
 
  913.27 in reply to 913.26  
 
"Both claim to be of God and divinely inspired and inerrant. How can one possibly know with certainty which one is correct, or if either are correct?" 
Let me turn that around for you. What do you believe about these two books? Is one more important than the other to you? Why? 

As you can see, this decision is a highly personal one, and each of us has to make it for ourselves. No one else can make it for you. Of course there is a third option, reject both. 

But that leaves you back where you started doesn't it.


Born once; Die twice
Born twice; Die once 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/16/2004 6:09 pm  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (28 of 42)  
 
  913.28 in reply to 913.10  
 
Just one question. Have you ever even read one complete sura of the Koran? 
  
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  From:  Bob (hioo)   11/17/2004 6:29 am  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (29 of 42)  
 
  913.29 in reply to 913.28  
 
I have read enough of "sura" from the different postings on these boards and a few at the library to know that I don't want much to do with that book. It is sufficient to become familiar with writings/sayings that you don't necessarily approve of, but you don't have to read enough of them to make yourself vulnerable to "believeing" some of them. BTW, these people just like cults anywhere, KNOW how to break down defense barriers put up against the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

They should know for they have learned well from their master, ole whatshisface. And make no mistake this is a "religion" straight from hell itself.


Born once; Die twice
Born twice; Die once 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/17/2004 7:51 am  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (30 of 42)  
 
  913.30 in reply to 913.29  
 
As is the same with the Bible, a verse from the Koran taken out of context can be very misleading. For example:

Psalm 137
8   O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
9   Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Or,

Joshua 6
17   And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.

Or, finally,

1 Samuel 15
3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [1] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

I do not attempt to get you to admit that Koran is an inspired book. As a Christian, you are probably very secure in your beliefs that the Bible alone is the inspired Word of God. And I applaud you for taking that stand. I, too, believe it is divinely inspired. That is why I would have to explain these quotations in their context were an unbeliever questioning me about the apparently merciless God of the Bible. HOWEVER, it does nothing for the cause of Christ for Christians to put down things they know little or nothing about. Don't go on hearsay, read the Koran for yourself or at least have the courage to say, when the topic comes up, "You know, I'm not really sure what my opinion is on the Koran, other than that I do not believe it to be of the same value as the Holy Bible - not by a long shot. I've heard a lot of negative about the Koran which has deeply colored my personal impression of it, but then again, my exposure to that book has been very limited and I'm sure that a book written fourteen hundred years ago could easily be taken out of context."

Or, as Jesus would put it:
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen;"
-John 3:11
 
  
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  From:  Bob (hioo)   11/17/2004 10:53 am  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (31 of 42)  
 
  913.31 in reply to 913.30  
 
A note of caution here. No verse or set of verses should be taken as a point of debate without taking the scripture before and after in context with the verses in question. Also, interpretation of given scripture should be such that the interpretation will stand the test against other scripture in the bible on or very near the same subject. Often I have seen what appeared to be a wonderful interpretation of a given scripture only to find that interpretation fall flat on it's face when matched with other scripture on the same subject but written in a slightly different context. 

The bottom line here is scripture is so tightly interwoven in our bible that an interpretation that applies to all verses that exist on that subject can be found to be the truth of the verses under scrutiny. Just another way to say the truth is the truth regardless of how it is written so long as the context is not disturbed.


Born once; Die twice
Born twice; Die once 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/17/2004 12:54 pm  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (32 of 42)  
 
  913.32 in reply to 913.31  
 
Bob,
That was exactly my point! Don't you think that if the Bible is this way, then maybe another book that also was not written in this century, i.e., the Koran, could also be misapplied?
If you believe this about the Bible, then you should also realize it is possible to misinterpret the Koran.
I do not believe that the Bible is a book of hate or that the God of the Bible is evil, however my point was that if you take a verse in the Bible out of context, it can sound every bit as hateful as verses from the Koran. 
Do you think your impression of the Koran, which by your own admission comes from reading a great volume of scattered verses various places online, could POSSIBLY be somewhat based on your misconception of verses taken out of context?
After all, we know that at least ONE of the verses from the Koran that you are familiar was a hoax. Sura 9:11 does not read at all like you posted it in your first post in this discussion. As a matter of fact, Sura 9:11 reads as follows:

"But even so, if they repent, Establish regular prayers, And practice regular charity - They are your brethren in Faith: Thus do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand."

The word "eagle" does not even appear in the Koran to my knowledge.
Do not judge what you are uninformed about.
-Kevin
 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/17/2004 5:20 pm  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (33 of 42)  
 
  913.33 in reply to 913.27  
 
Hi Bob,

At present I would have to say that neither the Bible nor the Koran have more importance to me. I find them both interesting records of the growth of religious movements. They are also interesting in certain parts in a historical context. I believe both to contain meritous instruction and wisdom as well as some that is less so and some that is downright nasty. 

I definitely have more knowledge of biblical scripture being from a Christian background. I admit to having very little knowledge of the Koran. 

Of course, having been raised Catholic, the Bible was not a real huge part of my religious upbringing. Catholics of my generation mainly heard two "readings" from letters of the NT and one from one of the Gospels each Sunday and that was it for scripture exposure.

Later in my life, while attending an evangelical, fundamental non-denominational born-again Christian church for several years, I attended Bible study and got a great deal more exposure to it. There were many parts that had the ring of "truth" or at least wisdom. But there were also many parts of it that really bothered me and some funny contradictions that I just couldn't get past. 

It is actually my hope that in a few years when my children have left the nest and I am semi-retired that I will have much more time for theological study and exploration. I envision a study with tables full of reference books open to topics of interest, pages of comparative notes, etc. And of course my comp for looking up obscure sources not available at my small town library. I will probably read the Bible cover to cover and I will also read the Koran and the Book of Mormon as well as the Hindu Vedas, Upanishads and any translated Sanskrit texts I can locate. There are many interesting correlations and similarities between religious texts over the ages that bear looking into. 

I have a general "problem" with the way God is described and depicted in both the Bible and the Koran, or for that matter by mainstream Christianity or fundamentalist Islam. To me, both seem to "make God small" and imbue him with human characteristics and failings; i.e. jealousy, vengeance, punishment, etc. I, personally, find these characteristics to be incompatible with what I view as the omniscient, omnipotent, all-emcompassing spirit of complete love which stands behind all creation and is worthy of awe and reverance (notice I didn't say "fear"). 

That is one of the reasons I don't feel the Bible is infallible (and for the record the Koran either)- - because their very basis; the God they purport to be speaking for appears very much made "in man's image" rather than the glorious, almightly, all-pervading spirit of love that I sense as permeating the universe.

Why do you feel it is necessarily a problem to "reject both" of these writings? How have you become convinced that some one doctrine must have a corner on the market of truth? The truth will always be made manifest within your heart if you ask and still yourself enough to hear it.
 
  
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  From:  Bob (hioo)   11/17/2004 6:46 pm  
To:  afreshface   (34 of 42)  
 
  913.34 in reply to 913.33  
 
{{{Why do you feel it is necessarily a problem to "reject both" of these writings? How have you become convinced that some one doctrine must have a corner on the market of truth? The truth will always be made manifest within your heart if you ask and still yourself enough to hear it.}}}

I would consider it a "problem" to reject the bible in particular for I am a devout Christian. It is my "guidebook". I made this decision a long time ago to follow the tenets and directions in the bible. I know that devout Muslims do the same thing with the Koran. 

To reject both, would cause one to continue to search for material that you would feel comfortable reading and believing. One can't arrive at all the correct answers on his own, regardless of how "smart" one thinks He is. And regardless of whom he reads. No one man has even part of the answers let alone all of them. 

Lord Jesus Himself NEVER strayed far from the word of scripture. And He was and is the most adept Man that ever existed that comprehends scripture as it should be understood. And as wise and capable as He is....and He would never depart from the context of the Old Testament, what chance does man have of coming into all truth on his own? Are we so vain and foolish as to believe that we can figure out the truth for ourselves? I know there are millions of people who think this. 



Born once; Die twice
Born twice; Die once 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/18/2004 5:24 am  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (35 of 42)  
 
  913.35 in reply to 913.34  
 
Hi Bob,

First I would like to express how delighted I am that you are continuing our discussion! I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot :o)

Regarding your quote: [[To reject both, would cause one to continue to search for material that you would feel comfortable reading and believing. One can't arrive at all the correct answers on his own, regardless of how "smart" one thinks He is. And regardless of whom he reads. No one man has even part of the answers let alone all of them.]]

I never said that I thought I was smart enough to figure everything out on my own. I said, [[The truth will always be made manifest within your heart if you ask and still yourself enough to hear it.]]

What I was referring to was asking (praying, if you like) for guidance from God in discerning truth in what I read. There is actually much wisdom and truth in the Bible, I just don't feel that EVERY WORD in the Bible is spiritual truth. 

Certain of the Bible's authors have claimed, within it's scriptures, that all it's words are divinely inspired, but I don't feel these particular men were divinely inspired at the moment they made that claim! I think that some parts of the Bible may have just been historical accounts and spiritual exhortations written by well-meaning pious men of the time who hoped or thought that they were interpreting for God, but probably were just writing what seemed good and right to them given the sociology and theology of that era.

I think that the truth about God and the way the universe works is probably far grander and far stranger than anything biblical authors ever dreamed of. And I think bits and pieces of that "larger" truth can be found in the scriptures of other times and other cultures as well as the Bible.

You said: [[I would consider it a "problem" to reject the bible in particular for I am a devout Christian. It is my "guidebook". I made this decision a long time ago to follow the tenets and directions in the bible. I know that devout Muslims do the same thing with the Koran.]] 

I completely respect your devoutness and adherence to Christian biblical tenets. I believe all people should be allowed to believe as they see fit, so long as their beliefs to not harm others. But I often wonder about devout people of any faith who, as a general rule, refuse to thoroughly investigate the writings/teachings of other faiths. For instance you told another poster here that you didn't see a reason to read more of the Koran. I am curious whether this is in part because you are worried you might read something in another culture's scripture that could possibly cast doubt on some of your Christian beliefs? I'm not speaking specifically about the Koran, because I feel the Koran is much like the Bible in many respects. It teaches of a God that is supposed to be both all loving (merciful, in the Koran) yet also full of vengeance (righteousness), etc. and makes God seem very "human-like" and "small". 

Have you ever chanced to read any Eastern Scriptures such as the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Tibetan "Bardo Thodol"? Some parts of them are difficult to get through because cultural differences make understanding somewhat problematic, but if you find one of the better translations, pray for understanding and discernment and take things slowly you can see much of Godly wisdom and truth in them.

I just think the Christian view that the Bible describes all we need to know about God is close-minded. To quote Shakespeare: "There are more things twixt heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
 
  
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  From:  Bob (hioo)   11/18/2004 7:57 am  
To:  afreshface   (36 of 42)  
 
  913.36 in reply to 913.35  
 
"I just don't feel that EVERY WORD in the Bible is spiritual truth."

Lord Jesus AND His Word, the bible say that either you are for Him or you are against Him. You either accept the bible as the truth, or reject it as your source of truth. 

Understand please, there are other sources of truth....so long as they don't counter the precepts of the bible. There is a definite and finite reason for this. Your mind must be ANCHORED to truth at some point, else you will be vulnerable to "truth" coming at you from all directions. What to believe and what to ignore? If you are "anchored" in the Word of God, this ugly question is largely answered, at least making it a managable lump in your life. 

There is no middle ground. This is NOT my words but Lord Jesus Himself said them. So if you have a "problem" with that statement, you will have to take it up with Him....not me. 

Admittedly there are passages in the bible that are very difficult to understand with our limited comprehension. There are contradictions, paradoxes, antimonies in the bible that we are just not able to resolve with our resources. 

But I have faith in Lord Jesus that at a time and place of His choosing, I will be allowed to understand ALL of these things. And if these explanations that are coming my way are anything like the Lord Himself, they will explain completely and totally my questions. But I can't push or rush these things. Lord Jesus doesn't push worth a darn. All in HIS good time, which naturally will be perfect. 

It takes faith to be a Christian....lots of faith. More than many are willing to pay. But the reward is so great even in this life. It teaches you patience. It teaches you to search out that which you CAN answer, and leave alone that which you CAN'T answer. Internal peace and serenity starts when you know what you can and what you can not do. 

Born once; Die twice

Born twice; Die once



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 11/18/2004 11:06 am ET by Bob (hioo) 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/20/2004 1:46 pm  
To:  Bob (hioo)   (37 of 42)  
 
  913.37 in reply to 913.34  
 
Hello,
I hope you don't mind if I jump in here again. I am finding this discussion very interesting.
I would like to state for the record that I DO believe every word of the Bible to be spiritual truth. afreshface, you brought up interesting points about how both the Bible and the Koran seem to paint out God in man's image. What I would have to say to that is, God has to find ways to relate himself to man. So he gives us metaphors in Scripture whereby we may more easily contemplate him. Fundamentalism grows up around the narrow-minded assertion that the metaphor is the absolute reality. For example, the Bible calls Jesus the "Lion of Judah" and the "Lamb of God", but it is ridiculous to bow down to a statue of a lion or a statue of a lamb. These are only meant to point out certain characteristics that are true of God but also true of a lion and a lamb. I would also add that the Bible describes Jesus as a man. While Jesus certainly did take human form, to worship the MAN and lose sight of Jesus' true identity, which is "The Word made flesh" is idolatrous, and it excludes all of Jesus' other manifestations to other cultures, such as when he appeared in the personage of Krishna in India, in about 500 B.C., to people who never could have heard about Jesus from Jews who lived 500 years later. It is also a very ethnocentric and racist way to look at God.
Either he is Lord of All or Lord not at all, and he is certainly Lord of All.

As for the Koran, I have read it through twice, which hardly qualifies me as an expert. At the same time, I am hardly a novice. I believe very strongly that one can believe whole-heartedly in the Bible and believe its every word, and still accept the Koran as true. I am not quite sure if I MYSELF accept the Koran 100%, but I certainly don't think it is demonic like you, Bob, do. In fact, I have felt very encouraged by many of its passages. To look through the Bible and the Koran requires a different interpretation of both of them, but neither interpretation compromises the integrity of a literal interpretation when you take the verses in context. 

Bob, you have said that the Lord Jesus never wandered far from Scripture. However, I am afraid you overlooked the exceedingly large gamut of teachings where he re-interpreted Scripture. The people of his day truly thought he was wandering from Scripture, but, as Christians know today, he was only revealing the original interpretation. Example? How about when he, in Matthew 19, stated what God's original purpose was in introducing the divorce law? That truly offended a school of highly Orthodox Hillielan Pharisees, who believed that it was the prerogative of the man to divorce his wife for any reason at all. 

How about when Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-44. "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love they neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you..." Jesus certainly departed from Scripture in those days.
 
  
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  From:  afreshface   11/21/2004 12:41 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (38 of 42)  
 
  913.38 in reply to 913.37  
 
Kevin,

It is such a pleasure to have your input here. I find your commentary is greatly stimulating discussion, which for a while lately, had been somewhat stagnant!

I am very impressed by the degree of your knowledge and the breadth of your readings at such a young age. I believe you have the potential to be a great theological scholar, if you have interest in going that direction. 

Here is a question your most recent post brought up to me. If one were to accept that the 'spirit' of Jesus has manifested several times throughout history (a supposition which I find emminently logical given the inability of many historic and ethnic groups to have EVER run into the Judeo-Christian savior, Jesus, or his gospel); i.e. as Krishna, perhaps Buddha, maybe Queztacoatl (... THAT might be a stretch...), etc., etc. would anything preclude one raised in a Judeo-Christian faith from following the path of one of these other theologies/philosophies if the practice of such was more spiritually satisfying and meaningful to oneself? After all, if the theology of Krishna were to be "proved" equivalent for Hindus to the theology of Jesus for Christians, would it not be "permissable" for one to follow whichever theology/philosophy "called to their soul" so to speak?

The reason I ask this, is that I find that much of Eastern philosophy resonants strongly with me. I find the "Eight-fold Path" and the "Dharmapada" of Buddhism wonderful tenets to live by. The idea of self-responsibility, goodness and charity towards all, all being our "brothers", etc. are very appealing to me. Moreso than the traditional Christian ideal of abdicating ones self responsiblity to Jesus as savior. I have not been following the Christian faith for quite some time now, but I find myself having grown much more spiritually AFTER leaving the faith of my birth than before. 

So what do you think of the option of choosing which path to take towards God, if the assumption was made that there were several equally valid ones to the one God?
 
  
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  From:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   11/21/2004 5:22 pm  
To:  afreshface   (39 of 42)  
 
  913.39 in reply to 913.38  
 
Just one man's opinion, so take it with a grain of salt (and don't mind my rambling introduction):

I do believe that the spirit of Jesus has manifested itself wherever it has been needed throughout history. I happen to believe that Quetzacoatl was undoubtedly one of those manifestations. The only "stretches" are some of the legends made up about the spirit of Jesus in any of his manifestations. Even the Jesus of Palestine circa 5 BC had legends made up about him, some of which are considered "gnostic" (though I tend to believe those more or less), some which are considered "Islamic", some actually made it into the canon (I believe those ones too, though). The point is, some of the legends are contradictory, which proves that, though many of them may be true, not all of them are. I believe the most reliable account of Jesus is in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Thomas. I believe the most reliable account of Krishna is in the Bhagavad-Gita (as opposed to the Sri Bhagavatam, which I have problems with). Etc. So I don't discount Quetzacoatl just because many of the legends about him are a little harder to swallow: they're just legends surrounding a true manifestation of Christ. Christians call the spirit of Jesus "the Word of God" in John 1:1. Stripped of his earthly name and his human form, that is what he is, plain and simple: the Logos moving all the universe.

So you see, you can't get away from Jesus, even if you plunge yourself into Buddhism (Jesus and Buddha are one). 

What is more, the spirit of Jesus, being perfect, never contradicts itself. So the philosophy of Buddhism, where you dedicate yourself to the service of others, and the philosophy of Christianity, which you described as abandoning yourself to Jesus, are not contradictory. They are one and the same. Look harder.

Jesus said "Take up your cross and follow me." This does not mean Jesus wants us to sacrifice ourselves to be closer to him, although that may be what Christian teachers, who don't understand Jesus Himself, would say. It means, instead, that we are to do exactly what He did - lay yourself open, crucify yourself, as it were, for the service of others. For the ATONEMENT (atonement = at + one + ment) of others.

If you've seen the Matrix trilogy, you may be aware that there are untold parallels in the story to both Christianity and Buddhism and Hinduism. I believe the theology of the Matrix is a pretty good explanation of the way I see things: Neo not only represents Christ himself, but he shows the way that all of us can be freed from the system. Only by following Christ's footsteps will anyone succeed. Even in your Buddhist path, you must be willing to follow the footsteps of Christ or you will be caught up in nothing but meaningless ritual (which is the exact same problem with Christless Christianity, as well). The best Buddhists, in my opinion, such as Thich Naht Hanh and the Dalai Lama himself, are excellent examples of Christlikeness in word and deed.

I have adopted many "eastern practices" in my own spiritual quests. But I've not observed any "conversion" experience of my own. I continue to be less and less accepted by Christians, but my love of Christ is even more passionate than ever before, so I can't really claim that I'm no longer a Christian. I find that no "religious" adjective describes my spirituality. Religion and spirituality are different. Its not about a religion, its about a relationship: to God, to ourselves, and to others.

One eastern practice I've found very helpful is meditation. Are you familiar with meditation? If so, here's an interesting exercise for you: Go to a fundamentalist Christian church one Sunday morning, and at the height of their worship service, begin to meditate. You can do it standing up if you don't want to stick out like a sore thumb. But just do it: detach yourself from everything except the spiritual realm around you, and allow yourself to feel what those people are feeling. If the congregation you attend is anything like the one that I attended when I first did this, you'll find that there are people who are crying out to God, and are very confused about how exactly they are supposed to reach him. In that moment, you can actually atone for them, make it easier for them, and vicariously help them to accomplish some healing. But I must warn you, its a troubling experience. Its probably the best way, however, to stop feeling so hurt by the conservative church, and to start feeling sorry for them. (Still a battle I am going through).

The short answer to your question is as follows: No, you can't go down any road you want to. You can only go down the one He leads you down. And you alone know which one that is. Don't lose yourself in experimentation - the whole point is to FIND yourself. 
-Kevin
 
  
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   From:  amym38     11/21/2004 7:34 pm  
To:  He who lacks dogma (ModernIsaiah)   (40 of 42)  
 
  913.40 in reply to 913.39  
 
I think the two of you aren't the least bit interested in what God has to say on any matter.   You should go start your own forum where you can feel free to discuss your false doctrine.    

Movin it along now.......

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Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian
 
  
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From:  afreshface   11/22/2004 6:11 am  
To:  amym38    (41 of 42)  
 
  913.41 in reply to 913.40  
 
If we leave this forum will go back to the doldrums............1 post every two weeks or so 
  
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   From:  amym38     11/22/2004 1:21 pm  
To:  afreshface   (42 of 42)  
 
  913.42 in reply to 913.41  
 
Better that than have it overrun with false doctrine.
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Host:  Speaking The Truth In Love
Asst.: Basic Christian
 
  
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